Power Pros Forum

J-roll won it last year. Pujols bats third .RBIs are helpful, becuase you cna have a lineup that does not hit well for the first few batters, but if a power guy is hitting, ne will still drive in more runs than a contact guy. A leadoff or 2 man doesn't need 150 RBIs. They need 100+ runs scored. Different stats make a difference for different batters. RS and Avg. mena more for con. hitters, HRs and RBIs more for Power.

I keep hearing that comment that RBI don't help determine if a player is good or not. Catcher hit the nail on the head and I want to pound it in. You wouldn't be batting 3rd or 4th if you couldn't hit the runners in, so it is a measure of how good you are. If a guy was batting 3rd or 4th, but only hit 40 RBIs for the year, you would rip him for being terrible because he wasn't hitting the runners in. Likewise, if you were batting 1st or 2nd, you expect that person to put themselves in a position to score many runs.

So, quit saying they aren't worth anything. The game is a team sport, it is very rarely that only one player gets credit for all the runs RBIs in the game. Every stat counts, so please don't belittle RBIs because your guy doesn't get very many. Each stat has a purpose at rating a certain talent.

Also, you don't criticize those that get many hits because the pitcher screws up and throws a meat pitch or the like. We don't criticize those that steal bases because the pitcher can't keep the runner close to the bag before the windup. My point is, these are all circumstantial things based on someone on your team or someone on the other team. If you are really good at the position you are batting at then you will be able to produce these stats, wether it be RBIs or Runs.

Also, if I recall the person who bats first also bats behind someone else as well. Unfortunately in the National league it is the pitcher, but still there are guys in front of him as well. Also, the person who bats first also gets more at bats than anyone else. If the person batting first was better at hitting more runners in with just one blast, then he would be batting 3rd or 4th.

So for an experiment a power guy bats first and blast one over center field, scores a run. Second batter gets up and strikes out. Third batter, contact guy gets up and hits a single to right field. How many runs do you have? Just 1. Both got hits, but the power guy was able to score himself and anyone that was already on base, where the contact guy wasn't able to score anyone.

Now the reverse, contact guy gets up and hits a single to right field. Second batter gets up and strikes out. Third batter, power guy hits a blast over center field, scores 2 runs. How many runs do you have? 2. Both got hits, but the power guy was able to score both himself and the guy on base.

If they both just got hits, most likely you would just have a man on 1st and 3rd, then they would both be equal, but they are not, the power guy has the ability to not rely on those behind himself to hit him in; therefore, if he is racking up the RBIs, then he is the most valuable player on the team because others can't necessarily fill this role and score others and themselves.

Now, let the good times role and the beatings begin!!!!! None of this probably made any sense, but I wanted to bring a bunch of different angles to the argument.

I still think VORP is very important and accurate.
BTW, from Baseball Prospectus, minimum 600 PA, from the AL:
# NAME TEAM POS LG YEAR PA PA% AVG OBP SLG SB CS MLVr PMLVr VORPr MLV PMLV VORP
1. Grady Sizemore CLE cf AL 2008 745 11.8% .268 .375 .502 38 5 .177 0.179 0.352 30.5 30.9 60.7
2. Dustin Pedroia BOS 2b AL 2008 726 11.3% .326 .376 .493 20 1 .202 0.206 0.362 33.4 34.1 59.8
3. Joe Mauer MIN c AL 2008 633 10.0% .328 .413 .451 1 1 .238 0.304 0.389 34.9 44.6 57.1
4. Josh Hamilton TEX cf AL 2008 704 10.9% .304 .371 .530 9 1 .229 0.215 0.353 36.3 34.1 55.9
5. Aubrey Huff BAL dh AL 2008 661 10.6% .304 .360 .552 4 0 .248 0.222 0.360 38.2 34.2 55.6
6. Kevin Youkilis BOS 1b AL 2008 621 9.7% .312 .390 .569 3 5 .313 0.235 0.378 44.2 33.3 53.4
7. Brian Roberts BAL 2b AL 2008 704 11.3% .296 .378 .450 40 10 .128 0.132 0.291 21.0 21.7 47.8
8. Justin Morneau MIN 1b AL 2008 712 11.2% .300 .374 .499 0 1 .214 0.125 0.286 35.3 20.6 47.2
9. Nick Markakis BAL rf AL 2008 697 11.2% .306 .406 .491 10 7 .236 0.167 0.289 38.3 27.2 47.0
10. Miguel Cabrera DET 1b AL 2008 684 10.8% .292 .349 .537 1 0 .191 0.108 0.271 30.1 17.0 42.7
11. Curtis Granderson DET cf AL 2008 629 9.9% .280 .365 .494 12 4 .145 0.149 0.280 21.0 21.6 40.6
12. Vladimir Guerrero ANA rf AL 2008 600 9.7% .303 .365 .521 5 3 .211 0.159 0.285 29.9 22.6 40.5
13. Johnny Damon NYA lf AL 2008 623 10.0% .303 .375 .461 29 8 .142 0.116 0.268 20.6 16.9 38.9
14. Raul Ibanez SEA lf AL 2008 707 11.4% .293 .358 .479 2 4 .158 0.114 0.231 26.4 19.1 38.5
15. Jermaine Dye CHA rf AL 2008 645 10.4% .292 .344 .541 3 2 .189 0.121 0.248 28.7 18.4 37.7
16. Jhonny Peralta CLE ss AL 2008 664 10.5% .276 .331 .473 3 1 .074 0.123 0.244 11.3 18.8 37.5
17. Magglio Ordonez DET rf AL 2008 623 9.8% .317 .376 .494 1 5 .195 0.131 0.240 28.0 18.7 34.5
18. Ichiro Suzuki SEA rf AL 2008 749 12.1% .311 .361 .386 43 4 .046 0.009 0.195 8.2 1.6 34.5
19. Derek Jeter NYA ss AL 2008 668 10.7% .300 .363 .408 11 5 .046 0.098 0.219 7.2 15.2 34.1
20. Jim Thome CHA dh AL 2008 602 9.7% .245 .362 .503 1 0 .120 0.110 0.235 17.0 15.6 33.3
21. B.j. Upton TBA cf AL 2008 640 10.1% .273 .383 .401 44 16 .073 0.077 0.224 10.8 11.4 33.2
22. Carlos Pena TBA 1b AL 2008 607 9.6% .247 .377 .494 1 1 .163 0.073 0.236 22.8 10.2 33.0
23. Bobby Abreu NYA rf AL 2008 684 10.9% .296 .371 .471 22 11 .143 0.076 0.205 22.8 12.2 32.6
24. Torii Hunter ANA cf AL 2008 608 9.9% .278 .344 .466 19 5 .077 0.079 0.222 11.1 11.4 32.0
25. Alex Rios TOR rf AL 2008 687 11.1% .291 .336 .461 32 8 .078 0.039 0.195 12.7 6.3 31.5

Where:
VORP = Value Over Replacement Player, MLV = Marginal Lineup Value, PMLV = Positional Marginal Lineup Value, and a lowercase "r" added to the end of those three = the same stat, but in rate form.
Fortunately, I completely comprehend these stats, because I am a stathead, and that's how I roll.

VORP helped Baseball Prospectous predict that the Rays would get 95+ wins. So I'd agree with stevenjackson39.

Uh, okay. We can go with what jackson siad, i think

VORP and MLV are basically the same thing.

Oh, okay. I like stats, but aren't quite that into it. Any stat-based or player related stuff i try to do, i'll just be baised with the phillies, so i just kinda look at the basic stuff (hits, avg. etc.)

Alexi Rameriez should've won!

won what?

Yes, the pitcher, and usually the worst batters on the starting roster. How often do these guys get into scoring position?

Jimmy Rollins was a great hitter, and only got 59 RBI's this season. As one of the best hitters on the team, he only got 59 RBI's. VORP and MLV are much better for deciding how good a hitter is.

You say great hitter. If he was a greater hitter in terms of scoring other people then he would be batting 3rd or 4th in the lineup. He is a great hitter that can get on base, not necessarily score other runners.

He is a speedy player, so he is a lock for 1st. It's not his fault he's with Howard on a team.

You mean that as a good thing right? I'm a lead-off hitter in real life (i'm NOT comparing myself to J-roll here) and i would love to be able to have howard in the lineup batting behind me. I would score a ton of runs.