Power Pros Forum

Sorry Abe, I'm not really interested in doing active players, and even less interested in doing active Yankees

I finished out my "starting lineup" of Hall of Famers - here's the latest batch of them. As always, I have all of them on my website: http://www.inside-corner.com/mlbpp.html

Wade Boggs and Ruth player for the Yankees.
But nice job.
I would have Gehrig ahead of Musial on the team as well.
Sutter pales in comparison to Wilhelm and Gossage. You a Cards fan?

Maybe I'll make them, but Berra should be the backup catcher, or Joe Torre

Hank Aaron should move Ruth to DH. For pitchers Walter Johnson and/or Spahn would be nice.

Yeah, grew up a Cards fan.

Being old enough to have watched both Gossage and Sutter in their primes, I completely disagree with you on who was better. Sutter didn't "invent" the split finger fastball (a minor league pitching instructor taught him the grip), but he was the first major leaguer to throw it - and he did to perfection. Read what his contemporaries had to say about trying to hit his splitter. His success inspired a generation of pitchers. My anti-Yankee bias aside, I'd say that at best Gossage was Sutter's equal. No way he was better though. Wilhelm? Please... IMHO there are only 5 closers in the discussion for all-time best - Sutter, Gossage, Fingers, Eckersley, and Riviera.

Boggs played with the Yankees for awhile, but his career was made with Boston. My Boggs is from the Red Sox Keep in mind I said "active Yankees" though in my remark to Abe, neither Boggs nor Ruth are active -lol-

Hank Aaron played LF, Ruth played RF. I plan on doing Aaron as well, but since I already had a LF in Shoeless Joe, I chose to finish out other positions first. When I do Aaron he'll bump Jackson to the bench.

I was thinking that someone else had already done Gehrig, but even then Gehrig vs. Musial is not as clear cut as you'd think either. When you consider their stats I think Musial compares more than favorably. I also like Musial for his positional versatility - he played all 3 outfield positions plus 1B.

* Gehrig - 2721 hits, 1995 RBI, .340 average, 493 HR, .632 slugging %, 102 SB (101 caught stealing), 534 doubles, 163 triples, 5060 total bases

* Musial - 3630 hits (NL record until Pete Rose), 1951 RBI, .331 average, 475 HR, .559 slugging %, 78 SB (31 CS), 725 doubles, 177 triples, 6134 total bases

Now look at their career records (reference: baseball-reference.com):

Gehrig:
RBI, left handed batter, season, 184, 1931
RBI per game, post-1901, career, .922
Most seasons with 100 or more runs, consecutive, 13
Grand Slams, career, 23
Home Runs, game (tied), 4
7-time AL All-Star (1933-1939)
2-time AL MVP (1927 & 1936)
AL Triple Crown (1934)
AL Batting Average Leader (1934)
5-time AL On-Base Percentage Leader (1928 & 1934-1937)
2-time AL Slugging Percentage Leader (1934 & 1936)
3-time AL OPS Leader (1934, 1936 & 1937)
4-time AL Runs Scored Leader (1931, 1933, 1935 & 1936)
AL Hits Leader (1931)
4-time AL Total Bases Leader (1927, 1930, 1931 & 1934)
2-time AL Doubles Leader (1927 & 1928)
AL Triples Leader (1926)
3-time AL Home Runs Leader (1931, 1934 & 1936)
5-time AL RBI Leader (1927, 1928, 1931, 1932 & 1934)
3-time AL Bases on Balls Leader (1935-1937)
20-Home Run Seasons: 13 (1925 & 1927-1938)
30-Home Run Seasons: 10 (1927 & 1929-1937)
40-Home Run Seasons: 5 (1927, 1930, 1931, 1934 & 1937)
100 RBI Seasons: 13 (1926-1938)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 13 (1926-1938)
200 Hits Seasons: 8 (1927, 1928, 1930-1932, 1934, 1936 & 1937)
Won seven World Series with the New York Yankees (1927, 1928, 1932, 1936, 1937, 1938 & 1939; he did not play in the 1939 World Series)
Baseball Hall of Fame: Class of 1939

Musial:
Total bases, left handed batter, career, 6134
Home runs, All Star Game, career, 6
Home runs, doubleheader, 5 (May 2, 1954)
Most seasons leading the league in doubles, 8 (tied)
Only player to rank in the top 25 of all 10 major hitting categories OBP-SLG-BA-HITS-2B-3B-HRS-RBIS-TB-BB
All time Season League Leader in Different Offensive Categories - (16)
Most straight seasons (16) with .300+ batting average - Minimum 500 Plate Appearance
Most seasons (13) with 300 or more Total Bases - Tied with Lou Gehrig and Willie Mays
Most straight seasons (16) with 30 or more doubles each year.
Most straight seasons (16) to strike out 40 or fewer times - Minimum 500 PA
First player to attain 300 HR / 3000 Hits
Only player to hit 300 HR and over 170 3B
Only player to hit 400 HR and strike out fewer that 700 times
Only player to hit 400 HR and more than 700 2B
Highest career OPS (.976)of all 3000 hit players
First player to attain 300 HR / 3000 Hits / .300 BA
First player to accumulate 6000 TB
Most seasons (14) to record a .300 BA /.400 OBP /.500 SLG in the same season - Minimum 500 PA
Most walk-off home runs (12) - tied with 4 other players
First player to play over 30% of games at two different postions.
Highest career fielding percentage (.989) - over 2500 games.
Only player in the last 60 years to record more that 170 career triples
Only player in the last 70 years to hit 50 or more doubles in 3 different seasons
Only player in the last 80 years to have 5 hits in 4 games in the same season
Only player in the last 80 years to bat .300 or better for more than 16 seasons - Min. 500 PA
Only player in the last 80 years to record over 425 TB in one season.
20-time NL All-Star (1943, 1944 & 1946-1963)
3-time NL MVP (1943, 1946 & 1948)
7-time NL Batting Average Leader (1943, 1946, 1948, 1950-1952 & 1957)
6-time NL On-Base Percentage Leader (1943, 1944, 1948, 1949, 1953 & 1957)
6-time NL Slugging Percentage Leader (1943, 1944, 1946, 1948, 1950 & 1952)
7-time NL OPS Leader (1943, 1944, 1946, 1948, 1950, 1952 & 1957)
NL At Bats Leader (1946)
5-time NL Runs Scored Leader (1946, 1948, 1951, 1952 & 1954)
6-time NL Hits Leader (1943, 1944, 1946, 1948, 1949 & 1952)
6-time NL Total Bases Leader (1943, 1946, 1948, 1949, 1951 & 1952)
NL Singles Leader (1946)
8-time NL Doubles Leader (1943, 1944, 1946, 1948, 1949 & 1952-1954)
5-time NL Triples Leader (1943, 1946, 1948, 1949 & 1951)
2-time NL RBI Leader (1948 & 1956)
NL Bases on Balls Leader (1953)
20-Home Run Seasons: 10 (1948-1957)
30-Home Run Seasons: 6 (1948, 1949, 1951 & 1953-1955)
100 RBI Seasons: 10 (1946, 1948-1951 & 1953-1957)
100 Runs Scored Seasons: 11 (1943, 1944 & 1946-1954)
200 Hits Seasons: 6 (1943, 1946, 1948, 1949, 1951 & 1953)
Won three World Series with the St. Louis Cardinals (1942, 1944 & 1946)
Baseball Hall of Fame: Class of 1969

Impressive for Gehrig and Musial.
Just keep in mind that Gehrig lost a of valuable playing due to the obvious disease. I've read many times that there was a decent chance that he could have broken home run and RBI records at the way he was going. But the versatility thing is pretty big, now that I think of it. He was also like Babe Ruth in that he was a pitcher first, I think (or was it someone else).

Yeah, the Gossage thing is probably my bias. I'm probably just bitter that Sutter got in (unrightfully, so) before Goose. I've actually never seen either pitch, I don't think I was alive when they were pitching. As for Wilhelm, according to ESPN "experts" Hoyt Wilhelm was one of the best. They were asked to name their top closer of all time, and those Red Sox fans had both Goose and Sutter, but few had Fingers, all had Wilhelm near the top, and most had Rivera at the bottom, with a Hoffman mention scattered in. But I would probably defer to you than them. Note: I watched this clip on ESPN.com after Gossage was elected.

My biggest problem with your analysis is that Hank Aaron actually did play mostly RF. According the Baseball-Reference, he played 2184 games at RF, as opposed to 313 at LF and 293 at CF. I do trust these guys more than ESPN. By the way, I don't have ESPN channels so most of my opinions of it are from brief viewings from vacation hotels, and other peoples homes.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/aaronha01.shtml

I've started a Joba Chamberlain. he started w/ good sense and decent stats, not genius ability, but he should be pretty good. I'm aware more people than not on here want him to be somewhat realistic, so I'm looking for input. Also I follow baseball fairly religiously but i'm kinda stumped on his pitch selection. I'm assuming he has a 2SFB, Drop Curve, Hard Slider, and Circle Change-up. If I'm wrong, please let me know because I'm making him for other people. God knows i'm not putting a Yankee on my Arrange Team

I'd go with

100mph 158CTRL 82STAM
4HSLD 1CHG
Battler, Safe Pitch, and maybe Dr K

82 stamina's a bit low, especially for a guy who's still primarily a starter. I'd say closer to high-90's or low 100's. Low-100's preferably (105). His slider is already a plus major league pitch, so 5 would probably be closer, with a level 2 changeup (it's servicable, not horrible) and 3 drop curve (average to slightly above).

More abilities than those, though:
Dr. K
Power P
Battler
Intimidator (although, it may be hard)
Fastball Life
Poise (bugs aside)
Strong Finisher

STAM dictates how the pitcher is used, not actual stamina. If he's gonna be a starter then I'd create a different version with a low A stamina (150-160) and slightly less velocity (97-98). If he's used sparingly in the pen because of pitch counts/Joba Rules, then he needs the STAM on the same level as a typical reliever. Compare him to Vizcaino (81) or Proctor (86) who were workhorses last year. If Joba has higher STAM, you'll see him pitching as much as those guys, which is unrealistic. 82 is being pretty generous.

A 5 slider is not a plus pitch, it would be one of the best in the game. As much as I've heard Yankee fans raving about his stuff, I haven't heard anyone (neither fans or experts) declare his slider the best in the bigs. 4 seems more reasonable unless you're ready to put it in the same league and Pedro/Santana/Hoffman's change, Andy Pettitte's cutter, K-Rod's slurve, or Joe Nathan's slider, all level 5s.

As for the abilities I agree with the Power P but disagree with the rest. Generally speaking I think the abilities should be given out conservatively.

Intimidator should be saved for the best of best or at least proven players. Papelbon doesn't have it, Putz doesn't have it, Zumaya doesn't have it, much too early for Chamberlain to have it. I don't think he's at the level of intimidating hitters with his presence the way Mariano Rivera or Randy Johnson do. He seems to have guts and shows some emotion on the mound so I think Battler should be enough.

Fastball Life is usually used to compensate the late life of the sneaky fast varieties of FB. Chamberlain's FB is as good as the radar gun says. I don't think it needs further boosting.

STR Finisher is only useful for CG so I wouldn't give him that. Poise too, Chamberlain hasn't pitched much with runners on and hasn't given up many hits so we don't know how he is in that area.

Overall compare my version to the top closers around baseball, I think the stats/abilities are good enough if not too generous.

Huh ... well, I definitely stand corrected on that. I really thought Aaron was mostly a LF throughout his career. Not sure why I missed the boat on that one. I guess I'll have to play AL ball and go with your suggestion of putting Aaron in right and putting Ruth at DH

I'm not arguing that Musial was superior to Gehrig, just that they were much more comparable than a lot of people realize. It's hard to say how many more years Gehrig would have played if he hadn't had ALS, as it was he did play 17 years - so he wasn't exactly young when he had to hang it up. But given the numbers he was putting up in the mid-1930s, if his career was able to continue and he didn't have any significant injuries, he might have finished with 20-25% higher stats than he had. Gehrig was true greatness though, no doubt about it. I really thought someone else had already done him, which is the main reason I went in a different direction.

Yeah, I hear you on Gossage. I really thought he and Sutter should have gone in at the same time - and shouldn't have had to wait so many years. I'm *not* old enough to have seen Wilhelm -lol- But my impression of his career is that he pitched a very long time and that as a reliever he pitched before the dawn of the "closer" era. I'll have to read up on him, but I've never viewed him as a closer in terms of the actual pitching role.

Hoffman isn't an HoF pitcher to me. I think he is a lot like Lee Smith, Jeff Reardon, and others that were great stats compilers over a long period of time, but never really at the forefront of people's minds when the subject of best players in the game is kicked around.

Well, Odawali, I guess if you compare him to the other closers in the game, you're right. But I think the game under/overrates many players. Personally I think Putz and Papelbon are better than that, and I think it should be noted that this game was created well before Putz had his breakout year, and Papelbon was still being considered for starting. Personally I think they're pitches should be in the 3-4-5 range as well.

Chamberlain is intended to start the season relieving before switching permanently mid-year. Given the practice aspect of Season Mode (which is much to efficient), I think that putting one level away from Stamina would be good, so that when he does start, he will have the correct stamina. Batters seem to be pretty afraid of him, though (just ask the Greek God of Walks Euclis - I hate Moneyball, that draft was horrible compared to what could have happened - because Kazmir definitely is worse than Blanton - and Brown was a MLB-star). I always though Strong Finisher was for late-inning relievers, guess not. You're right on FB Life, too. As for Poise, he did come straight out of college into dominating MLB hitters within one year, I think that qualifies.

To Wyl's post:
Yeah, I agree just about on everything you typed, as you seem to be 2-3 times my senior. Anyway, I dislike Hoffman, too. I see him as a Craig Biggio (but not as extreme), in that he was good for a while, but has either been around too long, or has gotten more recognition than deserved. Saves are somewhat overrated, but it is still one of the better stats or evaluating modern-day closer (i.e. not the 2-3 inning ones).

Damn! You guys are making some hardcore baseball comparison. I can barely follow. I guess I'm not old enough to have witnessed all that.

It's all Wyl. I'm still in HS.

I agree Papelbon and Putz are underrated in the game but their pitches still won't go higher than Lv5. Joba will be a notch below them.


Like I said my solution is to have two different players rather than creating something in between. He'll be using more pitches as a starter and saving some velocity. You can't emulate that by training him up in Season Mode. Plus B STAM will run out of gas by the 4th or 5th. On the other hand, giving him high starting STAM will turn him into a workhorse in the pen which is also unrealistic.


I think they're afraid of his stuff, not mound presence. The stuff part is accounted for in velocity. Right now he's a young kid going up against veterans relying on pure ability and guts. His name doesn't yet carry the weight of a Mariano Rivera or Randy Johnson.


That has nothing to do with how he responds after being knocked around in a game, which is what the Poise ability is about. If being able to handle the general pressure of pitching in the major leagues counted, then everyone would have it.

You definitely are conservative with abilities.

I think making two Chamberlains is kind of weird, especially in terms of roster space and salary, unless you add the other mid-season (but that will still mess with the salary, and there will still be two).

So were the creators


That's not the plan, I was suggesting sticking to one and using him exclusively in relief or in the rotation. I didn't see the point in emulating every single mid-season move a team makes.