Power Pros Forum

Not to insult you, Eric, because that's your opinion and I respect that, but are you sure Bonds and Clemens are no-brainers? With their controversy I don't know if I would say that, but that's just me.

Thats's who he would vote for, not who he thinks is getting in

I said they were no-brainers for me, not for you or any other human being, and yes I am positive. Their greatness as players - easily top 5 hitter and pitcher in the history of baseball - is enough for me. Were they PED users? In the court of public opinion, sure, but remember there was no testing or policing back then and MLB implicated its encouragement.

Eric called it

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/88283 ... ember-2013

In my opinion, no one linked to PEDs should get in. We are just (maybe) getting out of the steroid era and we need to wash it away. That's sending a message to young players that you may get a 50 game suspension, but you could still make the hall of fame. The MLB needs to wash away the steroid users completely instead of rewarding them.

That still doesn't explain why people such as Biggio, Piazza, and Raines failed to make it.

And I know everyone despises the steroid users, but drugs alone won't cause you to reach 762 homers, almost 3000 hits, nearly a .300 average, at least 500 steals, over 350 wins, more than 4500 strikeouts, and below a 3.15 ERA. Not to mention 8 MVP's, 7 Cy Young's, and 25 All-Star selections. Hate all you want, but even without steroids, both Bonds and Clemens would have plenty fine numbers.

Exactly, good point.



If that were true, why in the hell would you use them in the first place? Ruins your reputation when they would have been known as pretty good players.

I've seen the ken burns baseball documentary, and Barry did it because of being jealous. He felt that if McGwire and Sosa were taking them and getting press for being less the player he was, he was gonna take them and crush them.

And Phillies, you seem to think that using PED's (especially then) was a rare occurance. Supposedly (according to David Wells), 25-40% of player were "juiced". They turn bad players into average. Average into great (I.e. Melky Cabrera). And they turned great players into legends (I.e. Bonds and Clemens), and if you reach legendary status, people start to be suspicious. You have no idea how many players likely used steroids, and never got caught or never got in trouble for it.

Also, shuuto brings up a good point about the jelousy. A good example to equate to that would be like this. You're a high B, low A student in school, doing fairly well. Over the past few weeks, people have been finding the answer for tests online. People with C's have caught up to you, and kids with B's have passed you right by. So far, nobody has gotten in trouble, so you try it too, so you can stay ahead like you were before. Now you have high A's, and people start to get suspicious, and they find out you've been cheating. You're grades get wiped out and all the teachers hate you. You're not a bad student, you're just the one who got caught

Now, I'm not saying PED should have been allowed, nor am I encouraging them. I'm just saying that I don't agree in banning them from the Hall.

1.) You are a bad student if you look at the grades. Anyone who did is dishonest.

2.) Regarding your last post, Craig Biggio was close and he'll get in soon enough, Piazza isn't first ballot worthy, but he will get in soon.

Bonds probably would have gotten into the hall of fame before he started juicing, but he did do steroids. He cheated. And so did countless other players in that time period. The steroid era must be washed away. It could end up ruining the integrity of the sport.

Why can't the MLB just do what the NPB does and ban a guy a whole year for taking the juice? Then if he does it again he is banned for life, why is that not simple enough?

Well, there is 50, 100, and then life. I haven't seen any player get caught a third time, and seeing it happen a second time is sorta rare. I can only think of two instances (Manny, and some Giants pitcher)

If you do a year then a lifetime ban it will work better in my opinion, if the guy knows he will never play again if he screws up he won't do it, that is unless he doesn't care.

PED's were NOT banned back then. The league did not test for them. There were no rules against using them. No regulations, no suspensions, nothing. What you are suggesting is no different than forcing everybody who smoked a cigarette indoors back when it was legal pay a fine TODAY. Willie Mays took greenies, and now they are banned. Should we ban him from the Hall of Fame? Babe Ruth injected himself with sheep testosterone. Should we ban him from the Hall? You don't have to like the Steroid Era, but it was basically encouraged by everyone who benefited from it: owners, players, writers, fans, vendors . . . everybody. So a bunch of records were broken. It would have happened anyway thanks to expansion, a wave of smaller ballparks, and improved physical conditioning.

As for the players who failed tests and were suspended once the rules were in place? Absolutely, I agree.

I believe that'd be Guillermo Mota. I think.