Power Pros Forum

Easily? Why do you think so? Mussina's been consistently very good, but he's never been excellent.

His career reminds me of Greg Maddux's. They both had double-digit wins for a long time. They both were not strikeout pitchers, instead pitching to contact and fielding their position very well.

I like Mussina. I think he's underrated. But my problem with Mussina is that he never had any truly notable season. On the other hand, Maddux had a superb seven-year run (1992-1998). His ERA/ERA+ during that time was unreal, and to do it seven years in a row is just amazing to me.

I think Mussina and Schilling will make it. But it will be barely on the first try or second or third ballot.

But Blyleven deserves it more than anybody by far. That many wins on lousy teams is amazing.

A little more on Mussina. I don't think he's an easy Hall-of-Famer, and definetly not a first ballot guy. I think defense should count for a little, and I think when it's that good, a little more. I think your assuming wins are a huge deal for me. They're not. They're not that important of a stat to me and there are many more important things I look at first. But when it's as low as Schilling's or as high as Mussina's, then I think it means something. I generally care more about ERA, but based on what I said before, I think it's about even.

On Yankee Stadium, it's not a GREAT hitters park, but it's definetly more of one then a pitchers park. Arizona is one of the best pitchers parks.

Now back to Mussina. The thing about Mussinia is he was the definition of consistency. With the exception of 07, every year he has been a solid ace like pitcher. Very few can claim the consistency he has. In fact, he has the record for most 10+ win seasons in a row (and total too I believe, but it could just be in a row).

Untill last year, Mussinia was known as Mr. Almost. He almost had 20 win seasons 3 times before last year. In fact, his luck was simply abmissisal when it was time for that 20th win. One season he had 4 games left. 2 were rained out, once he pitched great and gave up 2-3 runs in 8 innings and lost, and the final one he left with a strong lead and it got blown by the bullpen. Every year he approached 20, something like this happened. It's fitting that he finally got it on the last game of his career. He also has 6 one-hitters and was 1 strike away from having a perfect game against the Red Sox. He also was the closest pitcher to get a perfect game (except Don Larsen of course, who did it) in the post season, also against the Red Sox and 5 outs a way. This helps build his case even more I think

Here's some more. He should have won Cy Young in 2001 against Clemens. Clemens was more popular and thus won it (in my mind). Here's the reason why:
Clemens Mussina

* ERA 3.51 3.15
* CG 0 4
* SHO 0 3
* IP 220.3 228.7
* WHIP 1.25 1.06
* K/9 8.7 8.42
* BB/K 2.96 5.10
* QS% 64% 71%
* RS 6.58 4.53
Here's a good article that supports Mussina: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/w ... index.html It talks about it before his year was over. the case is even stronger now. Look at this one too, it's also pre-mature: http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/1 ... -of-famer/
One more thing. Moose was a good team-mate and a leader. Jim Palmer called him the best Oriole's pitcher ever. While I disagree with him and would point to Jim Palmer himself instead, that's high praise regardless. Mussinia once said (paraphrased) about pitching, "A fourth of the time your stuff is so good that you know you're going to win. A fourth of the time you don't have anything and you know you're going to lose. It's what you do with those others times that determine what type of pitcher you are."
I love that quote.
Here's another:

Don't forget that Schilling pitched in Philly and Fenway.

I'm interested in hearing why sjax thinks Mussina is more HOF-worthy than Schilling.

I definetly think so. In my mind, it's pretty clear that Mussina was the better pitcher. I just don't know if either will make it in.

OK, but why?

Just a joke: Mussina played for those Yanks.

mussina wasn't a late bloomer like schilling was, and for most of his career he played for a crappy team in the O's. He was also a big part of the MLBPA, and his knuckle-curve is easily one of the greatest of all time, if not the greatest.
he was consistent his whole career, and bounced back from a horrible (by his standards) 2007 to finish his career with his first and only 20 win season.
plus, he was a great fielder, one of the best in the league each year.

None of that seems convincing enough to me to say that he's clearly the better pitcher. I think he was the better pitcher overall, but not clearly. Schilling's best years (2001, 2002, 2004) were better than Mussina's (whichever those were).

His involvement with the union is pretty secondary to anything he did on the field.

Defense is not a huge factor for pitchers, since it's not a major part of their game and so few of them are good fielders anyway.

How about this: He's been in the top six in Cy Young voting nine times, but only once in the top three (1999).

I think I chose my words badly. In my mind, he is clearly the better player, but not easily. To me, clearly simply means clear, I'm convinced and not torn. The decisions easy to make. However, that doesn't mean that one player is much better, it could just be slightly, but I think he's clearly a little bit better (Think of a defensive play. The runner trying to get to first. The umpire says he is out, when he was clearly safe. It was a close play, but the desicion should be clear).

OK, I get your drift now.

Back to the topic: Since Schilling last played in 2007, he'll be on the HOF ballot for the first time in 2013, along with Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, Sosa, Piazza, Lofton, Wells, and Julio Franco. If it weren't for tarnished reputations, that would be an impressive ballot.

Many think Biggio is a hall-of-famer. Lofton definetly isn't, Wells was only good with Toree (perfect manager for him), Franco is no where near that, Clemens and Bonds will be very close and interesting to see, and Sosa probably won't make it as unlike Clemens and Bonds, he wasn't a hall-of-famer or even near without steroids.

Sosa never took steroids.

Once again, Clemens and Bonds never confessed in taking steriods, Sosa's chance would be affected too as his HR rate suddenly increased. Clemens and Bonds will have a high chance than McGwire. Back to on-topic. Curt Schilling will make the HOF if he is like the only outstanding one in the ballot, mabye in 3-4 years after his first time.
Here is a HR chart:
Year Bonds McGwire Sosa
1997 40 58 36
1998 37 70 66
1999 34 65 63
2000 49 32 50
2001 73 29 64
2002 46 49
2003 45 40